Really remembering the consequences of war

We gotta fight, fight, fight, fight, fight the Taliban

Today is Remembrance Sunday, a day when we stop for a moment of silence, or watch veterans’ parades, or wear red poppies on our tops “to commemorate the contribution of British and Commonwealth military and civilian servicemen and women in the two World Wars and later conflicts”.

It was originally named the Earl Haig Appeal after the man who caused tens of thousands of needless deaths in World War I. There is nothing to celebrate about the first World War. It was a completely unjustified war for colonies, wealth and markets.

Today, Remembrance Sunday is basically a state-enforced institution, where criticism and dissent of the principle of celebrating this is not on any level tolerated, and this year it has reached fever pitch. Virtually every UK citizen is subjected to a form of hysterical bullying to participate. No one is allowed to be featured on the BBC unless they are wearing a red poppy, all political leaders wear them – even if it deeply offends the people that they are visiting – and children are forced to buy and sell them in schools.

This year, it has arrived in a fanfare of glitz and glamour, with the commercialisation of Poppy Day more noticeable than ever before. The Saturdays opened the ‘celebrations’ in London this year, inexplicably. On The X Factor, that barometer of our society’s values, the judges wore £84.99 diamond encrusted poppies, bringing a whole new meaning to the phrase ‘conflict diamonds’. (This is of course unfair, we all know that Cheryl Cole has a deep sympathy and understanding for the sacrifices made at Ypres and the Somme, and is an avid fan of the poetry of Siegfried Sassoon and Wilfred Owen). Obviously you’ve got to spend more to remember more.

At the heart of the “celebrations” this year has been the commodification of wholesale slaughter and the monetization of mass murder. The poppy has become a fashion statement, one that’s supposed to display your commitment to Britain, to ‘our heroes’ and to the continued fetishisation of the ‘glory’ of war. Wearing a poppy for many people is genuinely about remembering those who were forcefully drafted against their will into a horrific world war, but you can now buy t-shirts that proclaim ‘I *poppy* our heroes”. In today’s world, the ‘heroes’ fixation is a direct endorsement of the imperialist and unjust wars Britain is still undertaking in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Earl Haig: how can he be a hero? He doesn't even have any superpowers. Get back to us when you've been bitten by a radioactive spider.

Another reason people buy poppies and the various new related merchandise is because the poppy fund is a charity which provides for veteran soldiers. It’s an indictment of our fucked up priorities that we expend so much energy talking about how much we value the heroism of fighting for Britain in wars, yet it’s left to a charity to provide for those who have survived them. One in eleven prisoners in the UK formerly served in the armed forces. Up to a quarter of homeless people are former servicemen and women. There are countless veterans suffering from mental health issues who aren’t receiving proper support (although at least we no longer execute returned soldiers for suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder like we used to). The politicians that brandish their poppies are directly responsible for this – they don’t actually care about veterans – they prefer the idea of veterans to the reality of what life is like for those who have seen the horrors of war. The poppies they wear allow them to justify their inaction. It shouldn’t be left to charity donations to pay to look after veterans.

Here at SSY, we don’t agree with glorifying war and British imperialism. The actions of British troops today in Afghanistan and Iraq are far from heroic. For decades, the memory of the evils of fascism has been used to justify other imperialist conflicts which are in no way comparable, e.g. Kenya (even today, British forces based in Kenya for training continue to rape local women with impunity, which has been going on for three decades; these women are slandered by the British, and rejected by their own communities as well), Malaya, Yemen and Ireland. Remembrance Day, alongside the far more blatant Armed Forces Day, has been hijacked to promote and endorse the militarisation of British life and to encourage young people to sign up, for the “glory” of being remembered as a “hero” after you’ve been blown to bits fighting for the geopolitical and ideological aims of the elite who will never represent you.

We’re not the only ones who don’t appreciate every part of the message of the ideology of Remembrance Day. Legitimate dissent is not tolerated when it comes to Poppy Day – just look at the recent “ban sick bastards” style headlines when the Green Brigade, a left-wing Celtic fan group had a half time banner display in protest at the club’s decision to impose a poppy on the Celtic shirt, going against the wishes of the majority of fans. In Glasgow, it’s fair to say that there’s a lot of people who don’t appreciate being forced to participate in a celebration of British troops who caused misery in the north of Ireland for so many years. Like SSY, the Green Brigade has no problem with the individual choice to wear a red poppy, but rather to the bullying nature of the political campaign which expects everyone to wear poppies and to support the cause without reservation.

On a state visit to China last week, David Cameron and pals caused offence by wearing the poppy, without thinking of the fact that in the 19th Century British forces went to war with China to force them to accept imports of our opium (which is of course derived from poppies). This is a clear example of why a little bit more historical memory about the role of British forces and the British Empire in the world is necessary. The peoples who were wronged by Britain haven’t forgotten, even if we have.

This is what our generation does to remember the war dead. Not in our name, we don't want it to happen again

An official alternative to the poppy cult is the White Poppy Campaign, advocated by the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND). The idea is to remember the deaths of all who have died in wars, not just soldiers, and to advocate peace, not militarisation. This campaign has not been without controversy. In 1986, Maggie Thatcher (gonny just die already?) expressed her “deep distaste” for the white poppy symbol, and their spread in Canada has proved contentious to the point of being banned from being sold at markets and has drawn public criticism from the Royal Canadian Legion. You’re unlikely to see a white poppy on tv, where red poppies are ubiquitous throughout November.

The above views might seem controversial to some, but this year, veterans (and even the Queen’s composer) have spoken out against the use of the red poppy as a “political tool”. Former SAS soldier Ben Griffin rightly stated that

“Calling our soldiers heroes is an attempt to stifle criticism of the wars we are fighting in.

It leads us to that most subtle piece of propaganda: You might not support the war but you must support our heroes, ergo you support the war.”

Remembrance Day should be about honouring those who died needlessly in needless wars. The best way to honour the dead, and the point of remembering, is to ensure it never happens again. Anti-militarism and dissent against war is the way to honour those people, not diamond encrusted poppies, military parades and the stifling of dissent. As a youth organisation, we are proud of our record of opposing military recruitment and the lies spread to young working class folk to persuade them to become cannon fodder for the imperialist war machine that is the British Army.

Last word goes to the late Harry Patch, the last surviving person to have served in World War I

“Irrespective of the uniforms we wore, we were all victims.”

23 Comments

Euan Benzie says:

November 15, 2010 at 3:21 am

This is something I may differ from the masses on SSY. I feel that the Green Brigade’s demonstration was disgusting (not to mention the spelling ). I do not wear a poppy as I do not feel that the UK has fought a war that has defended my rights since WWII. Despite that it is not the fault of those forced to fight in Iraq and Afghanistan and those who are killed should be remembered and those who are injured deserve support when they come home. It is nothing short of an embarrassment to this country that many veterans of all wars have to rely on charity to live day by day which is why I will donate money to the poppy appeal. Despite that I do not feel that there has been a hero from the British Army since World Wars 2 and its also the only war we have fought that has been legitimate.

The Green Brigade are correct in listing Iraq, Afghanistan and Ireland as conflicts that Britain should not have done anything nor got involved and they were all illegal, however what they seem to forget is that many Irish republicans fought in World War 2 for the allied forces (many could point out that the IRA had Marxist routes and anti-fascist routes and many aided the war effort) but it has just started a whole circle of Old Firm hatred and pathetic point scoring from the blue side of town. Before the weekend’s game between Rangers and Aberdeen this display was produced http://www.rangers.co.uk/articles/20101113/fantastic-fans-poppy-tribute_2254024_2218796 . Rangers have never done such an extravagant display before but this just symbolises whats wrong with the Old Firm and their sectarian ways. The Poppy appeal will ends it’s affiliation with the SPL next season and its because its added fuel to the bigoted fire otherwise known as the Old Firm however thats another argument for another day.

I would agree with 90% of whats in this article. The British Army have committed horrendous war crimes over the years and have fought illegal wars but by not supporting poppy appeal (when I mean supporting I don’t mean wear the damn thing, I mean just dropping in 50p or whatever change you have, its not like you are endorsing the actions of the army) you are preventing vital support for veterans who, through no fault of their own, have been injured fighting an illegal cause. However the fact is, the Green Brigade seem to be implying that if you wear a poppy you support Britain’s imperialism which in my opinion is bollocks.

Sarah says:

November 15, 2010 at 3:30 am

I appreciate yer points Euan, but to be fair read the Green Brigade statement – they say they’re not against the personal choice to wear the poppy, they just don’t want it on their football shirt cause they don’t feel it represents celtic fans (which it doesn’t, imo. I’m no celtic fan but if I cared enough as the green brigade obviously do I’d make a fuss over it too)

Like we say, no bother with donating to charities to support mistreated people (like veterans) but it’s fucking sick that a) it’s a charity that’s providing for them in the first place and not the government – they’re doing the government’s dirty work and putting their lives on the line for the government’s ideological goals so the government should look after them and b) that people who don’t want to wear them are treated as pariahs, and all legitimate criticism of the army and of the way remembrance day has been subverted is reduced to ‘omg why won’t you support our boys you sick fuck?!?’ hysterics. It’s impossible to argue against it without a huge backlash if you wanted to not sell it in your school, or not wear it when doing something official for your work, etc. I would never tell someone off for wearing a poppy, though I’d hope for a reasoned debate about what it might represent with a fellow socialist or anti-war campaigner, but it’s extremely rare to be afforded the same respect for choosing not to wear one, or choosing to wear a white one.

Sarah says:

November 15, 2010 at 3:39 am

There’s a huge debate to be had about charities as well. I would never argue against someone donating to charity if they want to. But as socialists we should be arguing that system change is more important than spare change (though actually giving your spare change to a homeless person everyone should do if they are able – which a lot of people aren’t – I’d argue is more important than giving money to charity organisations, it makes an immediate difference to that person’s ability to eat etc)

Stuff like this is really important to consider http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/14/orphans-cambodia-aids-holidays-madonna

and all the telethons etc, they replace both government action on these things that are ultimately often their fault through wars and capitalism, and they replace real political debate about the causes and the solutions.

Like I say, big debate, we should have it on the blog soon

Chris says:

November 15, 2010 at 5:20 am

“Remembrance Day should be about honouring those who died needlessly in needless wars. The best way to honour the dead, and the point of remembering, is to ensure it never happens again.” point is when you forget about all the shit on tv diamond encrusted poppy’s and such that is why most people on a ground level celebrate the event and why protests like the “green brigade” one don’t amount to much.

” do not wear a poppy as I do not feel that the UK has fought a war that has defended my rights since WWII. Despite that it is not the fault of those forced to fight in Iraq and Afghanistan and those who are killed should be remembered and those who are injured deserve support when they come home.”

most people don’t seem to realize that the Red poppy has been a symbol of death since Roman times so what’s the problem with the wearing of the symbol its self if you want to commemorate war dead, the flower has nothing to do with British imperialism.

“But as socialists we should be arguing that system change is more important than spare change ” who says we arent ? I dont see why we cant take a minute out to remember the war dead.

Sarah says:

November 15, 2010 at 9:54 am

No one said there was a problem with wearing it if you want to. There is however a problem with the fact that the majority of people who are wearing them aren’t doing it to genuinely reflect, but because it’s “what you do” or they’ve been made to, the turning of the poppy into a fashion item is just the natural capitalist extension of that

Jack says:

November 15, 2010 at 12:11 pm

Euan, I’m curious as to why you found the Green Brigade protest “disgusting”. It was specifically about being forced to display the poppy on Celtic shirts, something that they are right to question. It wasn’t about donating money to appeals for veterans.

I think here there’s an issue of what many people mean by wearing the poppy and what it is used to represent by the state. I acknowledge many people just want it to say that they remember those that have died. But the symbol is also one of the most potent images of British nationalism. It symbolises an association of membership of the British nation and respect for the armed forces that underpin the power of the British state. It’s deliberately used to blur the lines between the fight against fascism in WW2 and the other unjust conflicts it’s been involved in. It therefore promotes the idea unquestioningly that the armed forces are a good, “honourable” thing, and encourages not to question their legitimacy or their actions. This then reinforces the mindset that is drilled into armed forces personnel themselves, that it’s not theirs to reason why, that they have to follow their orders and that’s their job. Our job is to undermine that and question the legitimacy of the military and its actions, which is why I can never undertake what is a political act – wearing the poppy.

Green Brigade fans know and understand this – the poppy is a symbol of Brit nationalism. It’s even more clear in Northern Ireland anyway. They’re right to question why people who don’t feel any allegiance to the British state should be forced to display one of its main symbols.

I wear white poppies when I can get my hands on one, because they are a political symbol with which I actually agree – an opposition to war. The white poppy originated because people wanted Earl Haig’s name taken out of the centre of the red poppies. Earl Haig was the man that sent tens of thousands to their deaths needlessly in a war that was completely unjustifiable. He deserves no support, his memory should be upheld for what he was – a monster. In 1994 Haig’s name was finally removed, but by that point the political meaning of the poppy had become well established.

I also think we need to have the debate about charity, I might try and write something in the week I have left in SSY. I strongly object to charity being used to deal with social problems, precisely because they are social problems that should be dealt with by society as a whole. Our society seems to approach poverty as if there are a set amount of poor people, and if we just give them some money it’ll be fixed. It ignores the fact that we live under a system that continually creates more and more poor people, and the real and only way to deal with the problem is to end that process. It’s the same with war. It’s an absolute disgrace the way the state treats former forces personnel. But the poppy appeal allows the government to get itself off the hook for its behaviour by getting all the ministers to wear a poppy – as opposed to providing funds for housing, mental health support etc.

Charity uses guilt and personal shame to ensure we don’t actually think about why social problems occur, and how we can prevent them (a better society). It’s performed this function longer than capitalism, and its roots go back to feudal times when the aristocracy, the ones impoverishing the majority, were able to psychologically cope by donating to the church to help the poor, and then feel like there wasn’t a problem. But meanwhile, they’d still be squeezing their peasants dry. The same process happens today, except now those of us who actually don’t need to feel guilty because we don’t cause social problems are encouraged to feel bad as well!

I’m not saying donating to charity is completely worthless, but donating your time to the struggle to change society is actually far more worthwhile, and, if successful, will actually solve the problem in a way your spare change will not. That’s why that’s how I dedicate my efforts. One of the political things I do is refuse to endorse the British state and military through wearing the poppy.

Euan Benzie says:

November 15, 2010 at 12:18 pm

I agree totally. These judges on Stricly Come Dancing and X Factor wearing diamond poppies is awful and it is turning rememberance day into a capitalist funfair, that fact that they are worth £84 and probably less than 10% of that money goes to the cause itself makes me sick. This is a quality article, most of which I agree with, including about WWI which was a pointless war and crippled Germany with many people dying of starvation because we were blowing up their food supplies.

(If you have a copy of the Sunday Herald from yesterday get the Sport Supplement and read Ian Bell’s article about the poppy appeal, its rather good)

It is a much wider point about charities and ourselvs as socialists. I see that BBC’s Children in Need is coming soon. Although the cause is good and I will donate money, you cannot help but think that for most of the projects the governement should be funding these (most of these projects have lost their funding from the national lottery as well because they are diverting it to the London Olympics which is a scandal in my opinion.) I’m not sure if everyone agrees with my last point there. Children in Need is good in its cause but it’s cause shouldn’t exist in a country like the UK.

James N says:

November 15, 2010 at 12:27 pm

Oh are they doing that agin this year? It’s just that they did it all those other years, so I assumed they’d have solved that poverty business by now.

Euan Benzie says:

November 15, 2010 at 12:37 pm

Jack, I thought is was awful that the Green Brigade called them “devils in hell” who are the devils in hell? The poor working class soldiers who have been sent into war to die for an illegal cause? They have to clarify that, its not the soldiers fault, its the politicians who send them in. The poppy appeal means so many things to so many people. Not everyone who wear a poppy supports the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan or what the army did in Ireland. For many (like the fascists in this country) it is a symbol of British Nationalism but I would say that for more people it is a symbol of remembrance for those who have died whilst fighting in the army, whether they support the wars or not is completely irrelevant.

On Remembrance day I remember everyone killed in conflicts, from the civilians of Iraq to the soldiers of the Wehrmacht in WWII and to the soldier who have been sent to their death in illegal wars. I feel that because of Celtic and Rangers trying to score points off of each other in a cringe-worthy manner over this topic it has meant that the rest of the SPL teams will not be able to carry the poppy on their tops from next season and clubs like Aberdeen who lost many of its players in staff through war and Hearts who have a particular interest as their whole team signed up and died in WW1 (an illegitimate war but these people must be remembered). I don’t wear poppies but I feel that they are giving support to those who have been abandoned by the state and that’s why I am disgusted when I see 100% anti-poppy protesters as the appeal does not endorse the act of war, it just gives support to those who have been injured in war and I cannot see what’s so morally wrong with that?

Jack says:

November 15, 2010 at 12:52 pm

Euan, on one level yes, the ultimate responsibility lies with the political leadership for the wrong acts of the British military, and that’s where most of the attacks should head. But are soldiers completely free of responsibility for what they do? Did you read about the systematic rape for 30 years of Kenyan women by British forces that we linked to in the article? Is that solely the fault of the government that condones and allows it, or should the men who actually do it bear some responsibility as well? What about those that tortured people in Basra? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/09/british-military-iraq-war-crimes) Or most pertinently for the Green Brigade, those who carried out Bloody Sunday?

I think it’s a sign of sheer arrogance by Celtic bosses to try and force this symbol and its political content on fans who don’t want it and don’t support it, and I think the Green Brigade protest was legitimate. I don’t believe in hell or devils, but I do think the deeds of the British military are shameful, and we shouldn’t be scared to say so.

“am disgusted when I see 100% anti-poppy protesters as the appeal does not endorse the act of war, it just gives support to those who have been injured in war and I cannot see what’s so morally wrong with that?”

But that’s exactly my point, it DOES endorse war, by promoting the idea that all British soldiers are “heroes” and what they do should be celebrated uncritically. Almost everything the British military has ever done should be loudly condemned for the rest of time.

Jack says:

November 15, 2010 at 12:57 pm

My feeling about children in need is that it actually facilitates the continuation of poverty by making society feel like its doing something while we continue to make more and more people poor. Charity does help people, I don’t deny that, but it’s real role going back centuries is to mask inequality and salve the consciences of the rich and powerful, as they continue to cause misery by their actions.

I agree with you it’s a scandal that lottery funding has been diverted to the Olympics (which like all international sporting events is in fact a cover for land grabs, speculation and capitalist accumulation). But I also think the fact they were funded by the lottery in the first place is a scandal. Around the world, lotteries that fund “good causes” are in fact one of the most regressive forms of taxation used by governments. It’s a really clever con because people don’t realise it, but instead of getting resources from those who can afford it (the rich and big corporations) governments extract money from the poor who are desperately dreaming of becoming rich themselves. Everyone who plays the lottery pays into the system the same, it’s in fact no different than other regressive flat taxes like VAT.

Euan Benzie says:

November 15, 2010 at 1:09 pm

I feel like I’m devils advocate here. I agree with just about everything you are saying and I might be acting slightly pedantic but I still believe that the poppy is not a sign of endorsement of illegal wars. I don’t think that Celtic betrayed their fans by any means, I didn’t see the whole stadium taking part in the display. Celtic are also run by a war criminal (I am aware of the Green Brigade being against him).

In terms of charities as whole I’d say we’ve came to a universal agreement but the poppy appeal is only a minor disagreement (as I agree with most things that have been said so far). Just have to agree to disagree on this one, would rather not drag it on, there’s more important issues right now.

Jack says:

November 15, 2010 at 1:14 pm

Don’t worry, I do respect where you’re coming from, and I regard this as an interesting discussion not a row.

As I tried to say originally, I agree that many who wear the poppy don’t see it as an endorsement of illegal wars. But if you say all British troops are heroes regardless of what they do, I can’t see that ultimately you can see it as not being an endorsement.

Lydia says:

November 15, 2010 at 4:19 pm

I’ll usually donate on remembrance day, but I don’t wear poppies. I want to support the families of those who’ve lost folk to the war, but I don’t need a plastic flower to show that. The Poppies are superficial. People just wear them. The meaning is either lost (Wearing diamond encrusted ones) or deviated (SUPPORT OUR BOYS).

Since I’m completely against war, I don’t wish to be wearing a badge of ‘honour’ for it.

Befnee says:

November 15, 2010 at 6:37 pm

I usually always donate on remembrance day but don’t usually wear the poppies (for one thing they always fall off but that’s another point entirely). Due to this, it’s pretty tiresome getting guilt-tripped when I don’t wear a paper flower for wars I don’t support. I agree with the above post, the meaning’s usually completely misinterpreted and the whole thing just turns into some kind of pride contest.

I like the idea of the white poppies, though, I might try and do that next year.

Lovebug says:

November 15, 2010 at 7:32 pm

Glad to see a bit of sanity on this because it is so depressing just hearing people at work saying things like “oh yeh I’d better get one before tommorow” and listening to my poor besotted partner getting his ear bitten everytime ANYONE appears on the BBC without a poppy (he works in BBC complaints).

Thankfully not at ITV complaints which, if the picture is anything to go by, will be busy given that either Cheryl or Danni is defiling the war dead by wearing their bling poppy ON THE WRONG SIDE!!! (women must wear their poppies on the other side incase they try to make soup with it apparently). Even the Queen had a bling poppy this year.

I’m glad both Sarah and Jack have mentioned what an evil bastard Earl Hague was…I remember as a child there were always good, honest, Christian women who would never wear a poppy because his name was on it.

And Euan not to nitpick but the banner read “Your Deeds Would Shame All The Devils in Hell.” If the “your” in that statement is the British Army, as opposed to ordinary soldiers, I can’t disagree.

Those who died fighting for our freedom are best remembered when we excercise our freedom to speak out against the slow drift towards militarism and nationalism – the very thing that those folks fought against.

lazy syebot says:

November 16, 2010 at 10:12 pm

I totally forgot about the memorial ceremony in George Sq. on Sunday. Pure walked right across it at 11am to get to Spoons so I could have breakfast – I was wondering what the fuck was going on until Stuart gave me the stinkeye. Hi, I’m Sye and I’m a total douchebag who hates dead soldiers.

Liam T says:

November 19, 2010 at 12:21 am

a team from the german third division agree, apparently: http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/3524/p1040402t.jpg

cullens91 says:

November 21, 2010 at 6:12 pm

I agree with almost everything that has been said here, and think the article is very good. The only point I would like to make (as a vague reply to some of the comments left) is that the reason Britain fought in the Second World War was not a noble one by any means, although it was a war that needed to be fought; it was fought for the wrong reasons. While the BBC may question “How so many intelligent people were fooled into thinking that wrong was right” [by Hitler] (BBC News at 6, Wednesday 27 November 2010), I totally reject the theory that the Second World War was an ideological struggle between the Nazis (who were despicable fascist bastards) and the Allies (who were supposedly defending the rights of the ‘Free’ people of the world), and it is frequently portrayed in this way by the pro-capitalist media. In 1941 Winston Churchill and Franklin D. Roosevelt signed the Atlantic Charter (as I’m sure you’re all aware) which included the statement “the rights of all peoples to choose the form of government under which they live should be respected”. Unfortunately Britain and the U.S.A (among others) would seem to have been exempt from the implications of this statement. Churchill’s reaction upon the later entry of the U.S into the war included; “We are now assured of victory, and the future of the empire is safe” (Sir Martin Gilbert, 2005, ‘Churchill and America’). What he meant of course was that Britain’s God-given right to rule and exploit peoples from all corners of the globe was still assured. The U.S also went on to sponsor imperialist powers in wars to ensure workers revolutions in these country’s failed, hence denying the right of peoples to choose the form of Government under which they live. Basically I believe the Second World War to have been a war between contrasting imperialist powers, and although the Nazis were more hellish evil, the other folks were pretty evil too. And no, I don’t hate dead soldiers. And apologies for a post that’s every so slightly off-topic xD.

Pablo says:

November 23, 2010 at 1:41 am

Euan Your comment on the green brigade may be reasonable it did not discuss me as i believe the poppy campaign is an easy way for politicians to score nationalist points. The falklands war I would say though not to fight for your rights was fighting for British citizens rights as they were to be put under a foreign dictatorship and was wrongfully invaded. Ireland was not a war it was an occupation and it lasted 800 years and still continues to this day. It is from this I also attack the poppy campaign as I will not be forced to commerate and laud as heroes men that rape and pillaged in the 1920s in Ireland the veterans troops called the black and tan.
On issue about rights defended in the second world war I wqould disagree purely on this the aim of Britain when entering the war was to protect polish soverignty and the sovereignty of other nations threatned by Nazi Germany. In this Britian did not suceed and there is a list of abuses which the british government enacted on the polish that and fought and died for this country throughout the war. There is several events were the allies did not act in a right manner like the sinking of the French navy when they refused to surrender to the royal navy. The Nazis were defeated and the horrible mass murder of around nine million people in various concentration camps. This was obviously a good thing but at no time did the allies attempt to stop these mass killings during the war.

Finally I would state this the first world war was no different from the second but nowadays the justification is that the Nazis were evil while carefully ignoring the fact that the original goals of the war were not met and many countries were betrayed by the allies. Not to mention Greece which had its monarchy forced upon it once again.

Pablo says:

November 23, 2010 at 1:55 am

Euan I would like to take issue with the fact that it is not thew soldiers fault it is the polticians. It is a trap into which everybody seems to fall into. Generals can do near to anything thay won’t while politicians who are going to get stick for it anyway take all the blame. The army is not a working class institution it si meaningfully structered almost like a fuedal state with quietism its watch word. The army is non-political in britain and I believe should remain so as it is often dangerous to politise armies as many states histories can attest to.

The soldiers in both Iraq and afghanistan were all volunteers no one forced them to join the army nor did any of the supprot staff so I think it is wrong and actually quite insulting to the soldiers that they somehow managed to be tricked into the army. On the First world War you could rightfully take this up with many wars but do you not believe that the sovereignty of Belgium was to be protected or even taht of France. I know in most likelihood it would have mostly ended like the Franco-prussian war but the point remains tha balance of power in europe was switching to germany and if Britian had not joined the war they would find themselves isolated.

Pablo says:

November 23, 2010 at 1:59 am

Also continiuing with are soldiers partially to nlame under nuremburg and International law which I personally don’t see as revelant but on a theoritical vierw the soldiers are to blame for their actions most nazi leaders were military and were tried for war crimes.

Also in the Glencoe massacre there was two english soldiers that refused to join in and were summarily charged with refusal to follow orders but they got away with it at their court martail due to them enacting on their concsience and not joining in the act.

Pablo says:

November 23, 2010 at 2:10 am

Cullen i agree with your opinion todraw on Nuremburg when a nazi officer, i can’t remember his name, was asked why the war was started he attacked the allies stating the Britian owned more the a third of the world the sun never sets and all that and the russians who only in the recent century had taken a large swathe of land strecthing from the Urals to the pacific ocean. Bordering China.

Often political justification is made of war the first world war was political justifiable at the time but when the number of men died that did it was generallly seen that if another war was to be thought a decent reason for going to war was needed. In political terms this reason was given the use of the words freedom and lierty started appearing at the end of the first world war when the stringntly democratic USA entered into the conflict. Also this led to the US president declaring all nations of europe to be free which ended up with him receiving a number of petitions from places he had never heard from showing an early blunder which the Americans have never seemed to learn.

Really remembering the consequences of war

23 Comments

Recent Comments

Archives

Authors

Really remembering the consequences of war

23 Comments

Recent Comments

Tags

Archives

Authors