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Fat jolly policemen let fascists roam free in Kilmarnock.
The racist Scottish Defence League took a trip to Kilmarnock this morning and were met with fierce opposition from local people and anti-fascists from across Scotland.
Although the SDL claim to be protesting against Islamic extremism and in support of free speech, their past record shows that they’re nothing but a bunch of racists and hooligans.
The SDL planned to assemble at the Rabbie Burns statue at Kilmarnock Cross at 11am and then march across town to spread their message of hate and intolerance.
Anti-racists occupied the space from 10am to ensure that the SDL didn’t get a foot in the door. There was a heavy police presence who pushed us into a small area of Kilmarnock Cross and didn’t allow us freedom of movement. We heard from various sources that the SDL had been herded into a nearby alley. A few of our number managed to break off and sneak away for a look, by following the sound of their vile chanting. As we approached we saw that the small number of SDL protesters were entirely surrounded and outnumbered by police.
At the SDL events in Glasgow and Edinburgh at this stage in the day, due to pressure from huge numbers of anti-fascists, the police stopped the SDL from having freedom of the streets and prevented them from their spouting racist abuse, by keeping them in one location and then removing them in buses.
This was not the case in Kilmarnock, however. Despite the SDL seeming quite happy to stand where they were and shout horrible things whilst waving Union Jacks, the police approached the group and told them that they would facilitate their “peaceful” demonstration, had identified and were happy with where the SDL wanted to go, and then invited them to march to Kilmarnock Cross.
Separated by only a few metres and a couple of lines of stony faced cops, the SDL shouted anti-Muslim slogans and made violent and threatening gestures at the assembled group of anti-racists, whilst we told them what we thought of them (and reminded them that even their own organiser thinks they’re all “wankstains”).
This went on for around 30-40 minutes – far longer than the SDL have ever been given free reign before. The SDL were eventually escorted away from the town centre. Rather than bothering to protect the people of Kilmarnock from the racist scum, the police instead focused all of their efforts on preventing us from pursuing the SDL. They were ultimately unsuccessful, as a small group of anti-fascists broke free and ran through multiple police lines to maintain a presence outside the hotel that the SDL had ended up in.
When we approached the hotel, a huge number of police officers swarmed around us and tried to pack us tightly into a small space on the pavement and didn’t allow us to move. The sun was blazing hot and we were stranded without food or water as the police desperately tried to persuade us to abandon our outpost and join the tokenistic rally in favour of multi-culturalism, organised by local trade union and political bureaucrats, that was being held near by.
Some of those anti-fascists who hadn’t managed to run past the police lines had been herded into the rally in park, where they discovered around 35 people nonchalantly lying in the sun, without even any speakers or political message being espoused. The speaker and the singer that were booked had both neglected to attend. One councillor made a half-arsed attempt at a speech and waffled a wee bit about how multi-culturalism is good. (Aye, that’s all well and good, but how come you’re too feart to say that racism is bad?) Whilst the fascists were being given free reign to roam the streets of Kilmarnock, the smug folk in the park were patting themselves on the back and talking about organising dancers and singers for a pro-multi-cultural event two months away in August.
Some anti-racist campaigners, frustrated at the lack of action, called on the people at the park to join the others outside the hotel in taking action against the fascists. Six polis on bikes immediately sped towards the group attempting to make their way to the hotel and LIED to their faces, telling them that the SDL were absolutely not in that hotel on that street. A couple of undeterred demonstrators pressed on, followed by the cops on bikes, only to be denied access to the street by more cops. Errr… but if the SDL aren’t there, as your colleagues claimed, how come we’re not allowed down this street? Confronted by their own lies, the police then attempted to intimidate the protesters and demanded their names and all of their personal details.
We continually faced harassment from both the police and the few SDL members who dared to show their faces outside of the hotel to attempt to goad us. After it became clear that the SDL were being allowed to leave the hotel in small groups unescorted by the police, we attempted to follow them down the street to ensure that they were contained and not posing a threat to local people. The police reacted forcefully and physically prevented us from moving. After a heated argument they realised that if the SDL were being allowed to disperse and go home, then they would have to allow us to the same.
As we walked down the street, we saw that a group of unaccompanised fascists had walked right past a few of the protesters that they had been threatening earlier on that day, as the police continue to hassle and harass us. It was potentially a very dangerous situation, that thankfully passed without violence from the racists. Understandably, we were a little shaken up and pissed off at the way the police failed to protect peaceful protestors from potentially violent thugs.
We were talking amongst ourselves about the scandalous behaviour of the cops, when one of our number said something about a “fat jolly policeman”. He was immediately grabbed by the arm and pushed against a wall and told:
“If you say anything else, it’ll be the last thing you say today. Do you understand me?”
When the shocked protestor failed to answer immediately, the cop pushed him further the wall and repeated the questions, whilst his colleagues tried to block anyone else from seeing what was going on.
The police turned their video camera on the protestor and pressured and intimidated him into providing them with his personal details, whilst refusing to answer any of his questions. After being asked multiple times if he was being threatened, arrested, detained… the police said that he was required to give his details because he was a suspect. A suspect of what, exactly? They refused to say until they had been asked a dozen times, and it was clear that the rest of us were not going to leave – they then claimed he was suspected of breach of the peace. Pfft. The police forcefully pushed the rest of us away, in order to better intimidate the lone protester, despite the fact that he had been nothing but respectful – even apologising to the police, saying: “I’m very sorry if I caused any offense to you in the heat of the moment.”
It was a beautiful sunny day in Kilmarnock, there was great participation by local people and we had a degree of success – the fascists’ attempt to spread their message of hate was drowned out by our songs, and we certainly showed them that they were not welcome in Kilmarnock.
There are some things that could have made the day a lot better - if there had been more protestors willing to confront the SDL, and if the police had stop trying to restrict us whilst the fascists do what they wanted, for example.
No doubt the SDL will proclaim today as a success, but to the vast majority of the people of Kilmarnock, they came across as nothing but a bunch of pathetic racist thugs.
One thing’s for certain, it was a confidence booster for the SDL, and they’ll be back.
What are you gonnae do about it? Wherever they rear their ugly head, we need to be there to let them know that their racist rhetoric is not welcome in Scotland.
Not now, not ever.
Also, the police were extremely sexist. At one point, they took two male comrades aside to ask them about plans for the day, and a few others of us were listening – when I said something, the cop made a motion for me to go away and said that “this is not for just anyone to butt into” whilst ignoring the men that had also “butted in”.
aye, police were shockin today.. very worrying precedent set in that the SDL were in the eyes of the polis the ‘good guys’, allowed to have their demo, march and rally, and roam the streets as they wanted.
they’ll be back within a couple of months i’m sure.
Well done Kilmarnock polis, you turned your town into a safe haven for neo-nazis.
Hope you feel dead proud of yourselves for that.
There’s a saying that “all it takes for evil triumph is for good people to do nothing”. Youz lot didn’t just do nothing, you actively collaborated with far-right hooligans. Dicks.
On the other hand, loadsae Kilmarnock people today were sound as. On the whole, you’d have to say that the SDL’s aim of ratcheting up racial tensions has been a failure. They were rejected by local people here and they won’t make significant progress anywhere else, not for as long as the Scottish Anti-Fascist Alliance are about.
Well done to those who were out in the street today and, just as importantly, out campaigning in the last few weeks for an anti-racist, united working class response to poverty and unemployment.
Boo hoo, Sarah! “The police were on their side, the police were sexist, the police asked us questions!!” You’re right, the SDL are racist scumbags but your group today were hardly whiter-than-white. Why do you think the police didn’t give anti-fascist alliance members a free run at the SDL? I’m all for every member of the SDL getting seven shades kicked out of them. However, I think the segregation was more about your (i.e. anti-fascist) safety than anything else. If you (or others in your group) are going to run through “multiple police lines”, don’t be surprised if some of your number are going to get asked questions. Had the police not been there, I doubt those who ran through the police lines would have been quite as ‘courageous’ as they were (it’s easy to be a hard man when there are dozens of cops to prevent you from getting a kicking – as the prominent bald guy in your group demonstrated in Bank Street). I don’t doubt this post will be removed and my right to free speech will be denied. However, dry your eyes about your perceived injustice on what took place today. “The sun was blazing hot and we were stranded without food or water(!?!”. The Scheme’s made parts of Kilmarnock look Third Wordly, but it’s hardly Ethiopia.
And Liam, it’s the council that allowed the SDL to have their demo, not the police. If that’s an issue, take it up with the European Court of Human Rights. Of course, it would be great if the only demos allowed were for the things that we agreed with. But that doesn’t tally up with the right of free speech, does it?
Ehhhh… Sarah never wrote that.
The polis were out of order today, end of.
I think that if people promise to go to a thing like this, they really need to come. We thought that we were going to have the numbers to prevent the SDL from making a statement and we ended up falling short. There are safety issues with low numbers. Clearly the SDL really enjoy intimidating and would most likely harm people there. If we have low numbers, this endangers the well being of those dedicated to turn up. These people far from deserve this risk all because some people can’t be arsed turning up.
However, all considered, i think that we held our own well. The SDL may have gotten to march but the noises they were making (Even then I’m being generous) were incoherent and made little impression on the public, who mostly looked over and walked straight on by. Apparently the whole thing was about freedom of speech, but their chants consisted of insults to us. Great work boys. I’m sure you’ll get freedom of speech from sticking your middle fingers up at the anti-fascists. Round ‘ay applause.
On the flipside, got to meet Chubby McStubby fingers! Even if it was across a road through two lines of police! Chubby McStubby fingers can be viewed and laughed at here: http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/storage/SDL%20Edinburgh2.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1266787955040
Anyway, my closing statement for now is that the SDL will surely spew out their verbal diarrhea about victories and try to do this again, so PEOPLE NEED TO GET THERE!
BooHoo, that’s no actually the case.
The SDL did not have prior permission to march. They had informed the council that they would be holding a static ‘assembly’ at Kilmarnock cross. The council do not technically have the power to prevent their freedom of assembly, so they referred it to the polis as a public safety issue.
On the day, it was up to the officers in charge to make judgment calls on how they would deal with each group of protesters. Clearly today they have decided to treat the fash as though they were just a legitimate demo exercising free speech, while we were cast as disruptive villains.
Considering that the tame official ‘non-confrontational’ Kilmarnock & Loudoun United march (which the organisers set up to begin after the SDL’s demo had finished) did not even get permission to hold a rally in the town centre, while the racists were facilitated in holding an impromptu march to a nice hotel to openly hold a fascist rally – it’s clear that the polis and the council have been worse than neutral on this issue.
It’s a strange type of anti-fascist who comes on here making trolly comments, disparaging SAFA activists – who by the way did put their arses on the line today against a mob of casuals and thugs – when your anger should be directed against the pigs and the fash.
James, whatever you think or choose to believe the key consideration for the police is public safety. To be honest, most cops would have gladly locked both the SDL and ant-fascists in Rugby Park and left them to get on with it. The main consideration for officers on the ground today would have been to get through their shift and go home. It may suit your agenda but it’s nonsense to suggest the police were pro-fascist.
If the SDL had not demonstrated in Kilmarnock today, do you think they would have just gone away? Whether you like it or not, it’s much easier to keep control of these scumbags when you know what they are up to. And once it was established the SDL would be at Killie Cross, do you honestly think it would be in the interests of public safety to give an anti-fascist demo the green light in the same place at the same time. Kilmarnock & Loudoun Trade Union Council mustered only approximately 80 people but indicated they might attract 750. Yes, 75 SDL members and 750 anti-fascists in Kilmarnock’s busiest shopping area on a Saturday morning – most fair-minded people, and doubtlessly Killie’s town centre shopkeepers, would agree that that’s a recipe for disaster.
You claim “The racists were facilitated in holding an impromptu march to a nice hotel”. They weren’t. The only reason the police escorted them to the hotel was to get them to the hotel without incident. Again, I agree with your members that the SDL are abhorrent. However, had the police not escorted the SDL to the hotel I fear some anti-fascists would still be at Killie’s Crosshouse Hospital, and not posting comments on here.
An excellent day for free speech.
Do the ssy support the black flag of jihad,are you all comfy in the knowledge that jihadists are free to spread hate against your fellow british.
Wake up .
yeh mark, SSY is actually just another of anjem choudary’s front groups. sharia law 4 uk, NOW!
BooHoo, who the fuck are you?! You’re obviously someone that knows me as you used my name when presuming I had written this article, despite me being clearly a different author on this site. I did not write this article. In fact, if you know me, you probably weren’t there today because if you were then you’d have known that I wasn’t there – I couldn’t be, as I have put my back out and can barely move. This really upset me as I wanted to be there. Regardless, who are you?!
Seriously, please tell me as I am really curious. I’m trying to work out what your agenda is and I just don’t get it. Why did you presume it was me, are you involved with SAFA at all? I don’t get it. Enlighten me.
BooHoo, one last quick recap of the facts.
SDL not bused out of town for first time
Allowed to march through Scottish streets for first time
Given access to Kilmarnock’s busiest central point
Trades Council denied right to protest at same time as SDL
K&LU not allowed to rally in town centre
Anti-fascists intimidated and threatened with arrest
In comparison to Glasgow and Edinburgh, the Kilmarnock polis’ behaviour was atrocious. Yes, that is from my biased viewpoint. I have publicly argued that the state should use what powers it has to hinder the rise of movements such as BNP & EDL. And of course this is also proof of the fact that the police are not a benign actor in such situations; to an extent it’s a numbers game whereby they can be forced to bus the fascists out if/when they are greatly outnumbered. But there clearly was also a big dose of political will affecting things today – the council and the cops had decided that their priority was to facilitate the Defence League’s right to do what they do. I think that anti-fascists should condemn them for this. Don’t you?
Btw, gonnae chill wi all the chat about the SDL followers being harder than the average anti-fascist? It’s self-evident that a coalition of nazis and football hooligans are gonnae be better with their fists. What’s the point in you sneering about this? Just sounds like you echoing the meatheads who were threatening us earlier.
In response to ‘mark thomas’…
I’m guessing you weren’t at the demo earlier. If you were, you’d have realised that our concern for our ‘fellow british’ can be summed up with the chant “you can stick your union jack up your arse”
Today was a mixed day at best but I think we should avoid the temptation to beat ourselves up about it.
No it wasn’t a “great victory for the anti-fascist movement” [Insert picture of Local Labour MP & Trade Unionist holding expensive looking banner] the reality is that we did the best we could with what we had. We could have marched round to meet the fascists (and probably ended up leaving the square and giving them all of this space with us being held on the outskirts) but people didn’t move their backsides. At the end of the day they’re were about 70 of us and whenever you make a move you always lose half the people so its no surprise that a whole 12 of us managed to get all the way to the hotel to be kettled, then released, then attacked (just for fun) by the cops.
However, with what little resource we had we made things difficult, confusing and downright fucking awkward for both the coppers and the SDL. Ultimately, the more costly and disruptive the decision to grant a march to these hooligans becomes, the less it is likely to happen. The decision by the police and the council to give freedom to these racist thugs is a disgrace but ultimately we did what we could to make them regret it. It represents a major change of police tactics which we must address but given that the coppers tactics have been to do what we told them on the last few occasions that is hardly surprising especially given our small number.
Our word of the day is “facilitate.” That’s the official response. The cops and the council are prepared to facilitate racism, to give it a place it doesn’t currently have and that’s a disgrace. Today they facilitated the first fascist march in my living memory
As is so often the case we are most grateful to a group of girls of “school age” …Frank McAveety….cough….who were from Kilmarnock and indeed the killie people generally who were perfectly amiable considering there were what must have appeared like running battles in the town centre. This proves as we all know that its not the green brigades, trade union bureacrats, antifa hooligans, manarchists or people shouting “Smash” while walking the other way that are getting things done.
As always it was the women and children. Today we promoted mass psychical resistance to organised racism and fascism because that’s the only thing that makes sense to us. More people could have done that, they didn’t. We could castigate but that gets us nowhere. The fact is I’ve not done bugger all for years but today again I was reminded of what a good bunch of people you all are and that, as seems to be the theme, it is better to do something than nothing. Today young people led, and even though there weren’t enough of us, if we left it to the oldies it would have been worse.
Aye, was just saying to Sarah on fb chat, although our mobilisation today wasn’t as succesful as we’d have hoped… imagine we’d done fuck all and just left it to K&LU! It would have been an absolute fucking disaster.
(“The sun was blazing hot and we were stranded without food or water(!?!”. The Scheme’s made parts of Kilmarnock look Third Wordly, but it’s hardly Ethiopia.”)
It may not be ethiopia, but that doesn’t stop the risk of dehydration and heat stroke, considering the fact that you are being tightly packed together and hardly given any movement. Think before you vent your anger out on people trying to do good. Another thing we not be massive sumo wrestlers or mike tyson clones but if it came to it i’m sure that the group would fight, fight with passion and if we get gubbed at least we know that we tired and shown the SDL we are not afraid of them, that someone will not stand for their shite.
we may not be* sorry
sorry i couldn’t be there.
well done to all who turned up.
it is worrying that the police facilitated facists, i they were chanting anti muslim statements surley they would be in breach of equality and diversity legislation?
I think someone from SAFA should complain to the police and demand an explanation for the behaviour of the police on the day.
hey ya rag tag buch of red scum bags and smelly fucks at that ,,, i was in killie yesterday 19th and our demo has proved to be a great recruting demo as well as getting our message across ,,we have had 30 new members in the past 24 hrs hahahaha ,,,,just wanted to say i hope the scum with serabile paulsy or how ever you spell it dies a slow painfull death and tel;l that cunt with the gollie wog nigger hair he is a marked man ,,,,sssdl sssdl sssdl muslim bombers of our streets ,,,,steph alloa area against islam and red traitors
You are a disgusting excuse for a human being. If you are really a woman Steph, is this you?: http://www.flickr.com/photos/duncanbrown/4715398978/
Usually I would remove steph’s comment because it is insulting to individuals but I am going to leave it so that everyone knows how disgusting and racist the SDL are.
Check out these photos if you want more evidence that they’re nazi scum: http://www.flickr.com/photos/duncanbrown/sets/72157624186717235/
leave Steph’s comment. Notice that the link in ‘her’ name is ‘BFF Scots Division’ – someone mentioned on the GB forum that they’d seen two people in British Freedom Fighters t-shirts there. Seems the SDL are quite happy to have Hitler-admiring neo-Nazis along after all.
I do believe there was a Steph on the SDL facebook page who got cut off because everybody thought she was a plant; poor girl had to prove she was actually racist before they’d let her back in!
Though there could be two vile racist wankers. It’s more than possible.
(BTW, your plant detecting skills suck.)
Annoying the lack of folkl turning up but I wouldn’t blame the police for the rise of the SDL. Its plainly solciety that needs to get a grip and actually deal with problems like such groups. If the BFF are in anti-fascists need to be turning up to these demos en masse.
I would expect more participation from the SSY. I expected James would be there cos he did show a bit of class against the BNP on election night.
oops not just the SSY a good few of them turned up and worked well…i mean SSP…
Omar, James was there. If he had to leave a bit early that is because he is diabetic and would have been ill if he had stayed longer. And to be fair, SSY were consistently the ones raising awareness in Kilmarnock. I think it’s a bit rich for you to be having a go at us for not doing enough given your limited input in Kilmarnock prior to the day
It was a cert that the SDL were not defeated previously and that they would regroup in more favourable towns. Also the cops were never always going to be as robust against them, its a big mistake to call for the polis to help and also the legal stuff leaves more mark against anti fascists than the SDL, who to their credit are savvy, street wise and tactically adroit in comparison to the most of the left.
Next SDL will be in similar town and they will double their numbers with EDL firms coming up if they can avoid police detection and being stopped at railway stations. They have learned from the last time.
Left/anti fascism is weak and could get a doing if the SDL get them away from polis and cameras.
Stef’s a loser. You’re about as scary as a Christmas dinner.
Steph from Alloa – we know who you are.
Agree that we should never rely on the state to counter fascism – and I don’t think SAFA has ever called for that. Reality is though that at every SDL/EDL demo it’s ultimately been the cops that’ve determined what’s happened – but the numbers on each side have been a key determinant. Probably also important to consider that there was a lot less political pressure on the polis over the SDL demo in Killie – there was the local Labour Party coming out, but that was about it. In Glasgow and Edin they had the whole political establishment bearing down on them, which can’t have not influenced their decisions to not let the SDL do anything.
Next time, we need more numbers, no matter where it is.
That article reeks of childish dribble.
i dont even know where to start talking about letting potentially violent thugs walk free un-escorted?
Who was it that was running around the streets of Killmarnock hurling abuse and trying to get at the SDL? What were yous trying to do there? that couldn’t have been done or said when they didnt have their escort?
Bunch of jumped up student moashers hiding behind the fat police they claim to hate.
Hyprocrites.
The local police had little or no objection to this, there was no organised response from the community just various left groups looking to establish themselves as the ‘leading’ opposition to the fascists. In reality no-one, UNISON, trades council, Labour Party and others from outside of town who tried to get their foot in the door using this sdl show, wanted the sdl to have their day, therefore giving them an opposition for their own counter show. The police did what was probably ‘best practice’ in the circumstances. They would have been happy to pull the plug on the whole thing but there was no public demand to do so!
sorry, meant to say, that no-one wanted the sdl NOT to have their day!
so yous know who i am then ??????????hahahahaha and you think that will stop me / us no chance …you havent got a clue who i am from what ive read and seen on ere ,,,my family have been in the british army for genarations ,,now my daughter is taking up the flag ,,and to think she is going to ut her life on the line for scum fucks like you lot ,,,the sdl bff will continue our fight we will never be sileanced or beat by a bunch of red scum who dont even know what a bar of soap lookslike …we just about had yous at the train station in killi your lucky the cops were bthere or mr gollie wog hair would have had a few less curls on sunday morning ,,,,sdl bff scotland untied against islamic and red scum on our streets ,,,,right name rong picture
SDL, here’s a bit of advice for you.
Yous like to talk about how you’re totally not racist, you don’t hate muslims or whatever – you just want to stand up against extremism, terrorism, Sharia Law and you want to promote free speech, right?
Well, how about actually doing that at your protests?
If you’re not racist, how about working with or talking to anti-racist and anti-fascist and the Muslim population in towns like Kilmarnock, to see what you can do to help to prevent any potential rise of extremist Islam? (BTW, scapegoating and abusing Muslims is just going to push them further into Islamist ideology.)
If someone tried to accuse me of being a racist I would either
- tell them that they’re wrong, and be on my best behaviour in order to prove it,
- or, I would ignore them and their silly lies and continue about my legitimate political activism.
Shouting “SCUM SCUM SCUM” at anti-racist campaigners and ethnic minorities kind of detracts from your claims not to be racist.
What would you have done in Kilmarnock if we hadn’t been there for you to abuse?
“Muslim bombers off our streets” ???
What muslim bombers?
I was feeling pretty safe from terrorists, Islamic or any other kind, on the streets of Kilmarnock (until you lot turned up, at least).
Didn’t feel too much at risk of Sharia Law, or being stoned to death for wearing shorts either.
MotherwellPartizan: I’m not a student. So what if I was, anyway?
And I would have felt a lot better NOT being behind the police, considering they were joining in with yous in verbally abusing me, as well as physically pushing me around. You don’t know what you’re talking about, so just shut it.
hillbilly: I dare you to tell the brilliant men, women and especially the young lassies fae Kilmarnock that “no one wanted the SDL not to have their day”. You’ll get a slap if you try.
So, to conclude, you’re disgusting racists, and even if you’re weren’t, you’re a bunch of fannies who should just shut up and go home.
Steph, you sound confused.
‘British Army’ one minute, ‘Heil Hitler’ the next.. what’s it gonna be?
btw, learn the difference between the spacebar and the comma button. it’d do wonders for yr writing skillz.
as I say, we know who you are. No you’re not sammy from paisley, yer from alloa.
I might not know what a bar of soap is, but at least i finished school and can punctuate a sentence properly. I assume the career path you chose was one based on admiring a dead man with a superiority complex and one testicle?
Give me peace.
Also, @ all the other twits: We might have been running around Killie, but we were doing it to prevent you wanks from abusing muslims. We can’t be criticised. Why don’t you all take a look at your lives and think again. Realistically, you’re just a flesh and blood human being, exactly the same as everyone else, but you wear jewellery and clothing with fanbase-oriented slogans. You all might as well be Twilight fans. Replace Hitler with Edward Cullen and your hate of blacks, muslims etc with angst and you’re the same people.
You’re about as scary as Twilight fans too.
the worst witch said: “I dare you to tell the brilliant men, women and especially the young lassies fae Kilmarnock that “no one wanted the SDL not to have their day”. You’ll get a slap if you try.”
I think this is a wee bit over the top in reaction to my comments, the whole tone of these debates always ends up like football fans or playgrounds with threats of slapping and fired up rhetoric. I will, and have, told people from kilmarnock that no one made a serious effort to prevent this sdl demo. Those who orgainsed all sides of it were more concerned with how their group would look in the aftermath than actually preventing the sdl. It is a fact that the police had very little in the way of objections or complaints from anyone. It is also a fact that police will act to stop anything that could cause them hassle if they are given an indication that they have grounds to stop it.
In kilmarnock, no political group or business or community group asked the police to prevent the SDL demo. The political groups are guilty of wanting the sdl thing to go ahead for the sake of what gain they might get from their opposition.
I am happy to say that and, as someone from the area, I object to your ‘scheme’ type portrayal of Kilmarnock “lassies” who would slap me rather than talk about it. My experience of the town, which is I suspect far greater than yours, is the opposite.
1) I’ve never even seen The Scheme.
2) I’ve spent a shitload of time in Killie throughout my life.
If you insist on commenting here, gonnae make it something a bit more exciting than baseless assumptions about anti-SDL activists and “I know more about Kilmarnock than you!” ? It just makes you look a bit thick and boring, you know.
We’ve got nothing to gain from opposing the SDL – we do it because it’s the right thing to do. I would have much rather been sitting in my house than getting abused by fascists and cops.
@hillbilly,
The people I know in SAFA – including SSPers, members of other political trends and non-party-affiliated anti-fascists – were to a woman and man all overjoyed that in Glasgow and Edinburgh the SDL did not manage to have a demo.
We weren’t looking for the big set-piece confrontation. We’d much rather the police had maintatined their previous stance of not enabling the fascists to operate freely.
But when there is a danger of them being out in a town, trying to spread Islamophobia and racism, it is so important that they are directly challenged. In Kilmarnock, the Scottish Anti-Fascist alliance were the only political entity who made a serious attempt to undermine the SDL’s strategy. Our demo included people who live and work and Kilmarnock as well as activists who had travelled there for the day. Same thing applied with Glasgow and Edinburgh. Same thing happens with pretty much all political demos. So what?
I was one of the people who travlelled down from Glasgow. It is an odd type of parochial localism that would try to make it seem like I should feel guilty for that, or that my opinions are less valid, or whatever.
My motivation is not to build some wee irrelevant group or to be seen to attain leadership of anything. I’m genuinely concerned that the emergence of the EDL as a pogromist street mob is a handy complement to the far right’s electoral advances under the BNP and UKIP banners. You should be worried about it as well. And people should do something to stop it.
In retrospect, I think the Kilmarnock & Loudoun United strategy was proved as not being as effective as SAFA’s.
I think we will leave it at that worstwitch, I have no idea why you are taking such and obtuse view of this debate so lets just agree to disagree. I dont think that I will be slapped by anyone when I state that i think there wasnt enough done to actually stop the sdl demo because people were focussed on their actions on the day, rather than stop ‘the day’ actually happening.
I do applaud the SSY for taking a stand. I am impressed by anyone who isn’t just an armchair critic and actually gets out there. With this in mind, I’m just appalled that some of you commenting here can’t see what damage you are doing to your OWN cause. This type of tunnel-visioned attitude, with a refusal to try and approach things in a mature, balanced way only weakens your position. Motherwell Partizan, Hillbilly and Boohoo clearly oppose all that the SDL stand for – these are people YOU need on your side – however all you’ve done is hurl abuse at them. Some examples of this below:
The Worst Witch: “If you insist on commenting here, gonnae make it something a bit more exciting than baseless assumptions about anti-SDL activists and “I know more about Kilmarnock than you!” ? It just makes you look a bit thick and boring, you know.” “You don’t know what you’re talking about, so just shut it.”
“I dare you to tell the brilliant men, women and especially the young lassies fae Kilmarnock that “no one wanted the SDL not to have their day”. You’ll get a slap if you try.”
Bravo, Worst Witch. For all you claim to be promoting freedom, you do a great job at abusing those who speak up against you. What makes you any different from the facists you oppose.
I think you’re right leaving Steph’s posts up – it clearly doesn’t do her or the SDL any favours and shows her for the bigot she is. However, had the anti-fascist movement not publicised the SDL demo so much, it would have been ignored with the contempt it deserved. Of the predicted 75 SDL members expected, about 40 turned up. And most of them probably only made the effort because they knew there would be a crowd of anti-fascists to goad at Killie Cross.
The SDL hardly have the most sophisticated publicity machine. Without your efforts and those of your like-minded comrades in providing the SDL with a captive audience, we’d probably have seen a dozen SDL members, half a dozen cops and passing shoppers looking on, thinking ‘What a shower of racist knobheads’. The racist knobheads being the SDL, WorstWitch, and not the cops who probably did you a favour! Most decent people would agree that you are the ‘good guys’, but that doesn’t give you carte blanche to breach police lines.
BooHoo, goin answer my question. Since you claim to know who I am (despite wrongly identifying me as the author of this article), it’s only fair that you tell me who you are.
I see you have the same ip address as ‘Nelly’ so in future could you please just stick to the one pseudonym please rather than trying to make it look like there are more people who agree with you than there actually are
Sarah, with all due respect, how dare you. I am Boohoo’s wife and perfectly capable of presenting my own opinion. I mistakenly thought that the SSY were a group of people who promoted freedom of choice, thought and opinion. This is clearly on your terms.
I am DISGUSTED that you checked our IP addresses and breached not only our option of confidentiality, but took the decision to broadcast it publicly. It speaks volumes that you are unable to refute our points and produce a counter-argument. Also, I find it quite creepy that you felt so challenged by our statements, you felt the need to indulge in some stalker-like antics.
I hope your fellow members can see this and understand the glaring contradiction of what you stand for.
(ps. if you’re concerned as to how people can see who YOU are, I’d think about removing the hyperlink to your Twitter feed)
Then don’t go on the internet, idiot.
The IPs come up when we look at the comments. Lern 2 Intarnetz.
It’s our site and we’ll do whatever we want. You don’t want us to know what you’re doing then learn how to use fucking TOR or have a dynamic IP. If you can’t use the Internet properly then don’t go cry-babying to us about your privacy.
Who cares anyway? An IP is near enough fucking useless to us unless we were the FBI.
Plenty of people come on here posing as about 8 different people, so don’t attack us on keeping check.
And i think Sarah is perfectly okay with people knowing who she is, considering that she’s used her NAME. So as your husband’s name implies BOO-HOO. We know your IP. We’re totally gonna track you down and eat your puppies. Although, im sure we’d have a hard time finding you because you IP is relevant to your INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDER.
Jesus H Christ Almighty Lord of all that is Shite.
Erm, I don’t care if people see my twitter, if I did, I wouldn’t have put it there. And I haven’t broadcasted your IP address, no one can find you or know who you are. As you’ve chosen to comment on OUR blog, it comes up with the ip addresses of who comments when we log in to wordpress. This doesn’t mean we know where you live or anything like that, all it means is that we can connect the dots if people are posting from the same IP address. Frankly, the fact that you’ve projected your own lack of knowledge of how the internet works on to me doesn’t make me look like a stalker, it just shows that you don’t understand how blogs work. If you choose to comment on someone’s blog, then your ip address will be visible to them, that doesn’t mean we can or ever would do anything with it. How very dare you indeed. I haven’t breached any of your confidentiality, I have shared your ip address with NO ONE. You, however, chose to share it with the SSY blog.
I don’t feel challenged by your statements at all. But I feel that it’s best left to people who were able to be there on the day to confront you directly. What I think is creepy is how “BooHoo” referred to me by name, seemingly without knowing me at all. I’m still waiting for an explanation of this.
If you are a different person to “BooHoo” then good for you. Again, if you ran a blog, you’d probably be aware that they tend to attract people out to start a fight. When you see someone arguing under different names from the same ip address, it’s usually because they are the same person. It’s good that you are two different people. It’s easy to see how it looks differently though.
There is no contradiction in what I stand for. I want to see nazis be denied the right to shout racist abuse in the streets and intimidate/harm people that they come in to contact with. I also help run a blog. These are entirely separate things and I don’t see how you wailing that I dared to say that you HAVE an ip address (as we all do, I DIDN’T SAY WHAT IT WAS) contradicts anything. So you can be DISGUSTED all you like but you’ve not got a leg to stand on as I’ve not done anything remotely objectionable
I thank you for proving my point so succinctly. Well done.
It actually frightens me that you are supposed to be the ‘good guys’. What chance do we have when people who actually agree with you on being anti-SDL (like my husband and I) get villified in this way. Seriously, you guys need to have a serious think about how you represent yourselves publicly. Good luck.
Oh, and I find it “quite creepy” that your partner used my name yet still hasn’t told me how they think they know me. I find that really fucking creepy. This has nothing to do with my twitter feed, as that only comes up when I post this, under my author name, which is “Sarah”, and had no input into this article or the comments until after “BooHoo” mentioned me by name. Your partner, “BooHoo”, thought I was “TheWorstWitch”, so they clearly know me or know of me from something other than this blog and assumed I was that person. And used my name in some sort of attempt to call me out or intimidate me. I’d say that’s pretty high on the creepometer
I would call my own partner an idiot if i found out he was greetin’ about his privacy being breached when he supplied the fucking details. You’re not being mistreated, you’re being informed.
He called you ‘Sarah’ because that’s your username! Why is this so hard to understand?
“I thank you for proving my point so succinctly. Well done.”
Lol you can’t just say that and that makes it true. We’ve argued with your points and now you can’t be bothered engaging with them so you’re just claiming to have won the argument without actually making any points.
“What chance do we have when people who actually agree with you on being anti-SDL (like my husband and I) get villified in this way. ”
No one is villifying you, at all. We’re asking you to explain your arguments, and you’re not, you’re just crying that we’re being mean to you, when we’re not.
If you are against the SDL, BooHoo and Nelly and anyone else, maybe yous should work with us instead of coming on our blog to abuse and criticise us. It’s people like you who pick holes in those of us trying to do something whilst sitting on your arse that enable to SDL to gain strength.
Nelly says:
June 21, 2010 at 8:11 pm (Edit)
He called you ‘Sarah’ because that’s your username! Why is this so hard to understand?
BECAUSE I HAD NEITHER AUTHORED THIS ARTICLE NOR COMMENTED ON IT WHEN HE SAID THAT. Why is THIS so hard for YOU to understand?! There would be NO REASON to bring my name into it pre-me commenting, unless my name was attached to this article, which it certainly isn’t.
Your partner is someone who thinks they know who I am and thought I had authored this blog under the name “TheWorstWitch”. I urge him to explain himself. How does he think he knows me? Has he ever met me in person? Has he ever had a discussion with me over the internet?
“I do applaud the SSY for taking a stand. I am impressed by anyone who isn’t just an armchair critic and actually gets out there. With this in mind, I’m just appalled that some of you commenting here can’t see what damage you are doing to your OWN cause. This type of tunnel-visioned attitude, with a refusal to try and approach things in a mature, balanced way only weakens your position. Motherwell Partizan, Hillbilly and Boohoo clearly oppose all that the SDL stand for – these are people YOU need on your side – however all you’ve done is hurl abuse at them.”
This pretty much sums up this whole cafuffle. I’m starting to think the SSY/SSP and the SDL are nothing but two sides of the same coin. I do find it funny how critical the article on the main SSP page is about the British Army being nothing but the bad guys who kill civilians while likening the SDL to Nazis who the British Army fought to protect us and who yous are now claiming to be fighting (albeit in a slighlty different way) in the streets of Kilmarnock. Don’t get me wrong I think the SDL are disgusting but Jesus Christ have a bit of consistency in your own beliefs.
“The SDL hardly have the most sophisticated publicity machine. Without your efforts and those of your like-minded comrades in providing the SDL with a captive audience, we’d probably have seen a dozen SDL members, half a dozen cops and passing shoppers looking on, thinking ‘What a shower of racist knobheads’.”
You get this argument a lot that you shouldn’t oppose the SDL because it’ll give them publicity. Taking a look at England, where the EDL/BNP operate freely in areas with very little opposition from the Left discredits this argument completely IMO. The first demo the EDL had as “The United Peoples of Luton” was opposed by nobody and was followed by attacks on Muslims and Asians. There’s a pernicious argument frequently made that if we let the BNP/EDL “get on with it” they’ll hang themselves with bad publicity. Given both of those organisations growth, there is zero evidence for this argument.
When the SDL/EDL say they want to march, it means they want to march. Being part of a movement thats stuck in a pub and then bussed out is depressing, pointless and demoralising – if the SDL get this treatment everytime they try something their members will chuck it. If they get to demonstrate (even in a constrained form like on Saturday) folk in the SDL will feel there is a point to their organisation, and will try to attract more people to it. That’s why it’s politically justified and necessary to try and block them every time they attempt to march.
The fact is it’s folk like Scotland United who have a lot to answer for now, that there whole tactic of relying on the police to stop the SDL marching has been shown not to work. Where anti-fascists do not have the numbers, the police will try to facilitate the SDL.
The police could have kettled the SDL at Kilmarnock train station, and then bussed them out – instead they chose to actively transport them over to Kilmarnock Cross where anti-fascist demonstrators were present. That was a choice they made and it was an appalling one, and it should be recognised as such. The SDL should have been kettled where they were by anti-fascists, then bussed out. That should be our aim for every anti-SDL demo in the future.
Ross if ye think SSY and the SDL are the same you need to have a bit of consistency in yer own beliefs – there’s clearly nothing uniting us wi them, and I’d like to know what people think should have been different and why. I think it’s irresponsible and lunatic to leave the SDL to get on with marching under police facilitation.
And I didn’t see anyone cheerlead for the British Army on the blog – just expose the hypocrisy of someone who is a Nazi but upholds the army as well.
The thing that ties yous with the SDL in my opinion is the complete polarisation of your views and what seems to be contempt for anything more moderate e.g what BooHoo and Nelly have said and when they were promptly criticised themselves. To me it just seems as thought their is no room for someone who doesn’t fully agree with yous and is a bit more moderate as I’ve said as what I would imagine the SDL to be like.
And the article I was referring to regarding the British Army was this one (http://www.scottishsocialistparty.org/new_stories/issues/bloody-sunday-days-work-for%20british-army.html). My Papa who fought against Hitler and his fascists and for people just to write an article that implies every soldier who is or ever has been in the British Army enjoys massacring civilians, I just find that quite distasteful to be honest.
“My Papa who fought against Hitler and his fascists and for people just to write an article that implies every soldier who is or ever has been in the British Army enjoys massacring civilians, I just find that quite distasteful to be honest.”
It’s a good job the article doesn’t actually say that then. It’s a tangent away from the SDL, but the article is right to point out that Bloody Sunday was not an isolated incident, whether people find the truth distasteful or not is up to them.
BooHoo’s been arguing the SDL should just be ignored – I’m sorry but I think that’s irresponsible and lunatic. There are plenty of places in England where the far-right has had a clear run without much opposition from the Left and it’s been a disaster. That shouldn’t be repeated up here, and the folk who should face criticism aren’t SSY but the police who had the option of kettling the SDL and bussing them out but chose to transport them to the cross, where there was an anti-fascist demo, then let them march to have a meeting in a hotel, and then release them in groups ignoring the EDL’s record of random racist attacks – http://uaf.org.uk/2010/06/edl-thugs-try-racist-provocation-in-whitechapel/
Ross, I don’t think SSY or SSP would ever seek to attack normal, working class soldiers in the British military. But we do have a Marxist understanding of what the army is and the role it serves in society.
I’m sure most SSY members – like most people – have relatives that fought against the Nazis. I have family in the army just now.
What the article you refer to is saying though is that it’s generally NOT the fault of individuals (as the government and military establishment like to make out.. that it’s just a few ‘bad eggs’) when these atrocities like Bloody Sunday happen – it’s systematic of the British Army as an institution and the interests that it serves.
I think the bit that sets us apart is not being nazis.
I take it the reason you all think we’re extremists is because you think they have the freedom of speech? Well, tough luck, i don’t think they should. I fail to see why racism should be allowed at all.
@Andy – I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree but I simply think that implying something as awful as Bloody Sunday is a daily occurrence in the army by having the heading “a days work for for the British Army” is just a bit silly. And I agree with you that the SDL have to be confronted but whingin about the police not reacting like they had before in previous situations is again, a bit silly.
@Liam – Fair enough, it just seemed like a bit of an attack on the normal working class soldier to me to be honest. I can appreciate the marxist views that you have about the army and standing by your principles is fine but I guess I’m just a bit frustrated as I’m sure alot of other peple are in Scotland about being socialists, not wanting to vote for the capitalist parties but at the same time think the armed forces are an important part of our society among other things where there’s less of a Marxist view.
@Lydia – “I may detest what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it” As with Andy, agree to disagree and all that.
No. If someone is standing on a plinth saying rape is right then I’m never going to allow them to say it.
@ Ross: We can’t criticise the police because they were just doing their jobs and protecting us from the SDL? (Even though they went out of their way to allow the SDL total freedom)
We can’t criticise the British Army because they fought the Nazis? (Even though it is now recognised they killed 14 civilians at Bloody Sunday)
There is some strange logic going on here!
To try and compare us to the SDL just because of an argument on the internet is over the line, and I find it personally offensive. It is way beyond the realms of comradely debate.
-
@BooHoo & Nelly: I think it is rich for you to now try and claim some moral highground over the tenor of this debate. Your choice of pseudonym hardly suggests you came on here for a constructive debate only to be abused. If you come on here and talk down to us, do not start greetin if you get a sharp response. I’m sorry if you are now upset, but tbh I don’t think anyone’s posts have been in any way shocking. Perhaps TheWorstWitch could have found a better phrase than talking about slapping, which I’m sure you’re aware was meant not meant to be taken as some sort of threat. But the insinuation that we were glad the SDL were out and we wanted their march to happen, well, it stinks. Totally untrue and unfair. Again, we were the people who actually did something to try to stop this vile march, and the anti-fascists were acting bravely, considering the Defence League’s violent track-record.
On the IP address issue, as has been explained, it is neither a breach of confidentiality nor something which poses any risk to yourselves. Sarah saw the same IP address posting under 2 names (with each name making very similar points) and made a judgment call that it was the same person. If it’s actually 2 different people, then fair enough, she was wrong. But you can see why she might have made the assumption. It happens all the time in online debates. And it probably wouldn’t have happened if you’d actually identified yourself rather than using a daft moniker like ‘BooHoo’. This is particularly relevant when you used her name, assuming it was her who’d posted the original article. It really is bad practice to throw someone’s first name about, wrongly, then fail to identify yourself or at least explain what happened and apologise for what happened. I’m sure it was an honest mistake, but clearly you have rattled Sarah and you should have some concern for her over that.
To sum up, the accrimony is this discussion is derived from last Saturday’s events, which were unsatisfactory for anyone who comprehends the seriousness of far-right street mobs assembling in Scottish towns. I’d rather we put personality-based bickering to one side and focussed on the important debate that is to be had on what we need to do to stop the SDL. I reiterate my point that however imperfect or chaotic the SAFA-initiated demo was, it was still the only serious political challenge to the SDL on the day and the ‘Kilmarnock & Loudoun United’ event did almost nothing useful to counter the fascists.
Andy Bowden said: “The fact is it’s folk like Scotland United who have a lot to answer for now, that there whole tactic of relying on the police to stop the SDL marching has been shown not to work. Where anti-fascists do not have the numbers, the police will try to facilitate the SDL.”
This is precisely my point, the mainstream left response DIDNT rely on the police to stop it, their only dealings with the police was over their own march. Their people being seen to oppose the SDL was the important thing to them. They should have organised a community response using all the available evidence to get local community groups, business and individuals to pressurise the police. The SDL forum is full of threats of violence, racist language, even guys posing with guns. As this ‘does not reflect the views’ of the actual owners of the site or mean that the people on the forum are the same as the people who will be on the march, then the police dodnt have a legal basis to use that to stop the march. If citizens express fear of violence, they have their reason. The Kilmarnock police would have happily told the SDL to go somewhere else, but the community didnt ask them to.
All we got in Kilmarnock was a mainstram left response and a far left response, we didnt see a community response.
BTW how do you access all of the comments? it only displays the most recent and there are about 20 comments that I havent seen.
@ James
“We can’t criticise the police because they were just doing their jobs and protecting us from the SDL? (Even though they went out of their way to allow the SDL total freedom)”
When did I say you can’t criticise the police? And if the police allowed the SDL total freedom they wouldn’t have been there in the first place.
“We can’t criticise the British Army because they fought the Nazis? (Even though it is now recognised they killed 14 civilians at Bloody Sunday)”
Again I didn’t say you couldn’t criticise the army, I was saying don’t tar all soldiers with the same brush.
“To try and compare us to the SDL just because of an argument on the internet is over the line, and I find it personally offensive. It is way beyond the realms of comradely debate. ”
Get thicker skin.
James N is right re the Kilmarnock group doing almost nothing, the idea was rushed, ill-thought out and poorly organised as it was, overall it was a waste of time. It was, in my opinion, organised to promote Labour and UNISON and will probably be followed up locally by attacks on the SNP or not taking part. From what I hear they made taking part pretty difficult for anyone.
The SAFA response was a better response and had to happen, in the absence of a community response. I wouldnt criticise the SAFA response but I would say that the report on this blog suggests a poor understanding of what was achievable on the day. Their tactics should have taken on board the fact that this time the SDL had police permission, and therefore protection for a static event. The SDL were not allowed to roam free judging by all reports and pics I have seen.
Ross: “Get thicker skin”
Bit rich, do you not think? You’re the one moaning about how our views are too strict.
@Lydia – No, not really. If anything it was gave yous a compliment that you stood by your Marxist principles in another comment I made. I was moaning about the lack the range of views you have there is in socialist parties in Scotland, and that’s all it was, a bit of a moan, I’m in no way personally offended your party doesn’t identically replicate my own political views, that would idiotic.
I’m just going to do yous a wee favour here and go through the relevant posts to highlight the actual points you’re making, so you can be assured that we have addressed them and can’t say that the side-issue of the ip address or anything that has subsequently came up since you made these points is some sort of attempt to not answer you. The aim is to dispell your claims, not in any sort of abusive way as you have been claiming, but through engaging with the points. I’d ask you all to do the same in future posts rather than reverting to strawman “you’re just like the nazis” claims which are offensive and childish:
BooHoo says:
” You’re right, the SDL are racist scumbags but your group today were hardly whiter-than-white. Why do you think the police didn’t give anti-fascist alliance members a free run at the SDL”
No one wanted a “free run at the SDL”, we don’t oppose the SDL to cause trouble and violence in the streets, that’s part of what we want to stop. We go to occupy the space the SDL wish to use and pressure them in to not being able to act in the way that they want to. It worked a bit in Glasgow. It worked spectacularly well in Edinburgh.
BooHoo says:
“If you (or others in your group) are going to run through “multiple police lines”, don’t be surprised if some of your number are going to get asked questions.”
That’s irrelevant. Clearly, the person described above was intimidated and questioned for making a comment (“fat jolly policeman”) that the police found objectionable, not for giving the police the runaround. There’s nothing illegal in evading a police line, I managed it 3 times in Edinburgh and it enabled me to get closer to the pub the SDL were in and join the crowd preventing them from being allowed a demo. It’s not my fault if the police weren’t prepared to cover all of the many side street exits from the Royal Mile. You’re trying to draw some correlation between not always doing absolutely everything the police want you to do (even though in most cases they have no legal authority to actually tell you to do something if you’re not doing anything illegal) and it being okay for the police to harrass and intimidate protestors as they did as described in the article above. There is no correlation – the police were out of line whether you like and accept it or not.
BooHoo says:
“Of course, it would be great if the only demos allowed were for the things that we agreed with. But that doesn’t tally up with the right of free speech, does it?”
I don’t believe in universal free speech, sorry. You don’t have the right to just abuse and intimidate people with your speech just whenever you fucking like. There are rights protecting you from that too. That doesn’t mean, as you’ll claim “stopping things that make you go boo-hoo”, it means stopping the very real effects that making racist claims have upon individuals and upon society. But even that’s superfluous to the issue – Defence League marches, when they have been allowed to happen, have a proven precedent for violence and rioting, aimed not at any form of legitimate target but at innocent Muslims and their buildings, shops etc. If it’s the police’s duty to stop violence in the streets, then they have a duty to not let Defence League marches go ahead. When the police aren’t doing their job correctly, those who oppose fascism and racism have the duty to apply pressure to the police to ensure they do this. This worked in Glasgow and Edinburgh where we had the numbers to pressure the police in to confining the SDL, but not in Kilmarnock, where we didn’t have the numbers. There’s a direct correlation here, how can ye no see it??
BooHoo says:
“James, whatever you think or choose to believe the key consideration for the police is public safety” and so on and so on
If that is the case, why were they prepared to facilitate a demo by a known racist, violent organisation? Think with your head and not some bullshit strawman love of “free speech”, the police have a duty to protect us all from violence and intimidation and in letting the SDL march they failed to do this, they actively facilitated fascist demands.
Hillbilly says:
“The police did what was probably ‘best practice’ in the circumstances. They would have been happy to pull the plug on the whole thing but there was no public demand to do so!”
There was plenty of public demand, I was out campaigning on the streets of Kilmarnock loads in the run up to this and there were absolutely fucking loads of people saying how disgusting it was that the SDL were being allowed to march, why were the police and the council letting them etc. Regardless, “best practice” would be to pull the plug on fascist demos ALWAYS given the threat they automatically pose to the public and to minority groups especially. They should have stopped them boarding the train or bussed them out like they did previously. That is “best practice”.
Hillbilly says:
“Those who orgainsed all sides of it were more concerned with how their group would look in the aftermath than actually preventing the sdl.”
We weren’t. That’s why we are so disappointed that the SDL were allowed to march, and are particularly annoyed at the police who had it easily within their power to prevent this whole situation, and they should have done so because keeping order and stopping violence is their job. I have no illusions in the police and the state as some sort of fair arbitrator of justice but that doesn’t make what they have done in this situation is any less shocking or wrong. I don’t care how you think we look, the point is that we tried our best and it wasn’t enough to stop the SDL marching this time, and also the point is that the police changed their line on this and should be criticised.
Hillbilly says:
“In kilmarnock, no political group or business or community group asked the police to prevent the SDL demo.”
Yes they did.
Nelly says:
“For all you claim to be promoting freedom, you do a great job at abusing those who speak up against you. What makes you any different from the facists you oppose.”
No one has abused anyone here. You can’t just state something and that makes it true. The examples you gave clearly ask people to back up their claims or keep quiet. Seeing as they still haven’t backed up their claims, it’s a fair comment. We are very very different from the fascists we oppose. We don’t hate anyone irrationally. Fascists and nazis and racists hate people irrationally based on lies and fear and their own issues around self-perception. We hate people who intimidate and who use their power to subordinate others. We don’t hate anyone who has come here to argue with us on this site except the SDL members who have clearly made racist and hateful remarks. We have engaged with your criticisms, not ignored them. Engaging with your arguments and not coming to the conclusion that we agree with you does not = abuse.
BooHoo says:
“The SDL hardly have the most sophisticated publicity machine” etc etc
Andy Bowden has already dealt with these points so I’ll leave it
Andy Bowen and James N have also both dealt with Ross’s points so that’s fine.
And thank you James, your assessment of how I feel over the name issue is correct, and I’d ask BooHoo to take that into consideration (like I said already, it HAS creeped me out) and put me out of my misery by revealing what the motivation for doing that was/how they think they know me. I have already explained that it is good that you are not the same person, and I am genuinely sorry if it caused you offence to think that you were not different people (although as has already been explained, I don’t have anything to apologise for over mentioning the ip address issue)
“BTW how do you access all of the comments? it only displays the most recent and there are about 20 comments that I havent seen.”
Hillbilly, if you scroll to the bottom of the page it says “<< Older Comments”, click on that and it’ll take you back to the first 50
I have a question that I would like to ask all of those defending the SDL’s right to march and by extension the right of racists to free speech:
What would you say to those people who are victims of racist attacks in areas in which prejudicial speech (and consequently prejudicial thinking) has becomes more tolerated once it is common place?
What Lydia, Worst Witch and others have argued is far from intolerant or absolutist. I believe that the desire to limit racist speech is motivated through a concern for public safety, not the defence of any political or ideological interest. Firsat Dag’s death in Sighthill back in 2001 took place after months of BNP incitement to racial hatred in that area: it should have taught all Scots that this is problem that needs to be taken very seriously.
In my view there can never be such a thing as unqualified freedom of expression; anyone who does believe this will need to defend the abolition of restrictions on all forms of hate speech, threats and verbal abuse. There are such things as illegitimate forms of expression and racism is one of them.
PS: BooHoo – I suspect the reason you are being asked for your name is in order to reveal your agenda or viewpoint. That you have been so keen to conceal one suggests you are very keen to conceal the other.
Ross, it’s not just a matter of me bein a sensitive wee soul.
Reality check: It is yet to happen in Scotland, right, but in Bolton, Dudley, Manchester, Leeds and Luton (these are the first ones that spring to mind, there have been others) the EDL have smashed up shops, racially abused members of the public and dished out beatings to anyone who gets in their way. Check out the youtube videos and photos from their various demos.
We have had an argument on the internet. And you are suggesting the two things are similar.
The big problem with the SDL/EDL is not some minor deviation from the norms of liberal debate, it’s that they are an active, violent, bigoted hooligan mob.
Have some consideration for the people who are threatened by the SDL for just being who they are – non-whites, non-Christians, non-heterosexuals and, as you can see above, people with a disability. The threat facing them from SDL and other far-right factions is very real and very serious. You do those people a great disservice by putting your experience on the SSY blog in the same bracket as theirs.
I think sarahs post highlights what I was saying. Firstly, the police tell me that they didnt have objections, so which political group made the representations, dont just say ‘yes they did’ or I will counter with ‘no they didnt’ and we could reduce that to ‘did-didnt’ all night.
The protesters failed to take into account how the police were likely to deal with this issue. When I say ‘best practice’ I am obviously looking at what the police on the day considered that they were dealing with, rather than what we would all consider ‘best practice’, i.e we would agree that the fascists shouldnt be allowed to have a platform anywhere.
The police, in this case, had a request for a static public protest and little or no response from the community against it. Once it was given the go-ahead their job on the day was to make sure that the event pased without incident. There was never any chance of the police allowing another group to occupy the site without prior notice and permission. The best way to ensure that no trouble happened was to escort the SDL to and from the site and then away from the town centre, at the same time blocking the opponents of the event from directly confronting the SDL.
It is my opinion, speaking as someone who knows the community, the local police and the council, that this could have been avoided. How many councillors submitted an objection to the police? How many local businesses were canvassed, how many local pubs were asked to show them no welcome? How many groups and/or individuals submitted formal objections to the police over the SDL rally? Seriously, the police dont want this on a saturday, their budgets are stretched enough. If an organised campaign of objections had been carried out, the police would be under pressure to respond to local fears and also political pressre. The councillors should have told the heid honcho directly ‘we have warned you about potential trouble, if you allow this and our warnings prove to be correct then, we will come back and ask why you didnt practice the precautionary principle in this case. Why you used public money on an avoidable situation” Remember, the police are employed by the councils!
In the absence of this action, and the hollowness of the local trades council response, the SAFA took probably the only action available. I dont have objections to their action on saturday, I just dont agree with the version of events here, I think the police response was predictable and we know this from past history. We need to learn lessons from events, this one has a lot of lessons.
I think the quite bitter debate around who did what in Glasgow and Edinburgh set the tone for discussions in Kilmarnock and what we ended up with was mistakes caused by no-one stopping to think what this event was, and how to deal with it. One side has one response, the other have another.
Well one of the main lessons I’m taking from this is the need to do the same thing but do it better – i.e. get more people involved. Existing members of left-wing organisations who did not mobilise for this one should have a word with themselves. with Omar’s remarks about the SSP earlier,
I really don’t wanna start another row, but there was a notable lack in interest from the UK’s main anti-nazi umbrella group, Unite Against Fascism.
I don’t think the references to Glasgow and Edinburgh are bitter, so much as triumphalist. And rightly so, they were great days for anti-fascism and a vindication of the direct action model.
And finally, at the risk of going round in circles, I’m not just gonna go ‘ho hum, p.c. plod was just doing his job’ – there was a clear instruction from on high for the polis to treat the SDL as a normal, legitimate protest and to do what was needed to allow it to go ahead. That was wrong and I hope it is not repeated.
There may be some value in your points about putting pen to paper and formally registering complaints with the ‘men upstairs. Perhaps Safa should think about producing some sort of letter or petition protesting the authorities’ decisions on the day.
Oops meant to say: with regards to Omar’s remarks about SSP members’ involvement, I’ll be honest and say I was also disappointed by it, and I raised the issue at the SSP Executive Committee on Sunday.
James N – “Well one of the main lessons I’m taking from this is the need to do the same thing but do it better – i.e. get more people involved. Existing members of left-wing organisations who did not mobilise for this one should have a word with themselves”
Get more people involved and do it in communities, trying to get more from the shrinking pool of the active far left isnt the answer. More people on the day would have meant more police with the same outcome.
James N – “And finally, at the risk of going round in circles, I’m not just gonna go ‘ho hum, p.c. plod was just doing his job’ – there was a clear instruction from on high for the polis to treat the SDL as a normal, legitimate protest and to do what was needed to allow it to go ahead. That was wrong and I hope it is not repeated”
It is unfair to describe my position as saying ‘plod was just doing his job’. I’m asking you and others to look at the situation practically, think about what the police will do in each situation and respond accordingly, there are several ways of skinning any cat. In doing that I have put forward why I think the article here is wrong about the police and why the police action was predictable. And, I am suggesting ways of pressurising the police into a different course of action, I’m not cheering them on.
James N – “There may be some value in your points about putting pen to paper and formally registering complaints with the ‘men upstairs. Perhaps Safa should think about producing some sort of letter or petition protesting the authorities’ decisions on the day”
Thats not what I meant, an organised standard letter, coming from people outside of Kilmarnock, saying that they dont want fascists on the streets won’t work, it will be seen as an organised campaign. What is needed is a reason for the police to place a higher priority on the safety of town centre businesses and the public, than on the event that has been granted permission.
The real problem for saturday is a lack of organised left in Kilmarnock in particular, ayrshire in general. There was no direct link to the community. The local UNISON and Labour party lost most of those links a while ago, the SSP and others didnt fill the gap. There were very few of the SDL from Kilmarnock, very few of the SAFA protesters and the ‘diversity’ march had only a few dozen people, drawn from unions and Labour branches across Ayrshire.
I fear that the next SDL action will follow a similar pattern, wherever it is. I work in ayrshire, in the community, and I dont think that either response will have made any difference to the real battle, winning the argument amongst the working class of Kilmarnock.
This site highlights part of the problem, I was attacked as soon as I criticised, needlessly, another two posters were also attacked. I didnt even follow what the others said after their early posts and was talking about a different subject altogether, yet was lumped in with them as some sort of three-pronged attack on the SSY. Until that defensive attitude is dropped, getting a broad anti-fascist movement will be difficult.
Sarah, I don’t think I know you – I definitely don’t know you. I referred to you by name because I mistakenly thought you’d written the blog having had a quick look at the SSY website (which I was directed to having google searched for articles on the demos in Kilmarnock). I witnessed the events in Kilmarnock and thought the WorstWitch’s comments were rather blinkered. If my mistaken reference to your name has upset you, for that I apologise.
I don’t have any links to either side in Kilmarnock on Saturday and I’m certainly not a cop. However, as HillBilly says above, it seems some SSY members can’t accept criticism. I appreciate that, by definition, SSY members will be young. An ability to see the bigger picture will most probably come in time. However, SSY members attacking those with different opinions from theirs does the SSY no favours. I think this discussion has run its course and won’t be making any further comments. Perhaps HillBilly’s post above – if nothing else – will give the SSY something to think about.
Hillbilly raises some very good points. There is a pressing need for the working class socialists to work in the communities in order to inspire people to actively oppose the SDL. This can only be done by presenting socialist alternatives to the SDL, racism and organised fascism and winning the ideological battle going way beyond nasty racists and islamophobes. We need to be clear about imperialism, British nationalism and the need for scapegoats as the wc faces attacks on living standards. Not easy and it wont be done by a couple of leaflets.
What’s happened in this thread is pretty transparent tbh. A bunch of people with an axe to grind, and at least one of whom is a professional internet warrior, have come on here with an intention to cause problems. At least one of these people has made clear they weren’t there on the day, and yet feel perfectly fine about criticising from the sidelines.
I am sick of seeing the typical troll tactic of coming on a thread and opening with a bunch of aggressive, unhelpful comments (posted, of course, under a pseudonym) with the intention of provoking people. When people respond to these comments, you then try to back away and portray yourselves as the voices of reason. Well, we’re not fooled.
The use of pseudonyms by these people, far from concealing their identities, makes some of them clear. Hillbully, how was the music festival?
The bullshit about Sarah is transparent as anything. You didn’t just “assume” that a completely different author wrote this article, you’re well aware that Sarah is the SSY organiser and had an intention to have a go at her.
Really if you folk genuinely want to contribute constructive ideas to the anti fascist movement, we might perhaps have seen you at any of the SAFA organising meetings. Or the meetings that we held with the local trades council. Or building against the SDL on the Kilmarnock streets, which resulted in local youth taking part in the protests. Or on the day itself in Kilmarnock.
But no, you felt the best contribution you could make was sitting on the sidelines, not making any kind of significant contribution, then after the fact going on the internet to slag off self organised young people who worked very hard against a fascist, racist organisation. Good job guys. I think you are the people who need to have a serious think about some of the things that have been said on this thread.
“I appreciate that, by definition, SSY members will be young. An ability to see the bigger picture will most probably come in time.”
Anti-youth prejudice is not welcome on our site, thanks.
Time to shut this debate down as I think all the useful ground has been covered.
Internet debates have a tendency to quickly become flame wars, much more so that real life debates. I don’t think we’re to blame for that.
SSY’s culture is one of openness to debating ideas in a respectful and inclusive manner. The conduct of our members was commended by those present at meetings with the Trades Council, despite big differences of ideas.
As members of Safa, we did actually make the effort to speak to members of the community and challenge racism. And we did have success in getting a progressive message across to people who we perhaps otherwise wouldn’t have spoken to. The SDL’s attempt to stoke up more racism in Kilmarnock have failed. Our efforts in the run-up to the demo and on the day itself were important in that sense.
Masked Avenger that was a brilliant post – just nailed it IMHO.
I agree with every word.
I’m not a member of the SSY, just an ordinary member of the SSP but I am very, very proud of the SSY.
The SSY do a brilliant job, the comments SSY members have made in this thread, the anti-facist work they do for those and loads of other reasons I think the SSY are fab.
Hillbully (lol) Boohoo and the rest – you should be aware that the SSY are not alone and I for one will not stand by and see them attacked.
I love the SSY